That’s really interesting because personally when I have discovered artists on TikTok, it is a very similar feeling – this person looks like they’re having the best time of their life and I need to know more. I get so invested in seeing it. I think some people struggle getting on TikTok and thinking they have to be an influencer. And it’s like, no, but you don’t.

But you don’t, and it’s really, in my opinion, it’s more about documenting your life in a way that’s genuine. There are videos that go viral because people are just so excited about the song that they’ve made and they think it’s the best song in the world. And you can tell. You can tell if someone really believes in what they’re doing. And I think that that’s the most important thing. You just have to document your real life and then people will follow.

What has it been like for you cultivating this online fan base and nurturing those relationships on a digital platform? And then the second half of that is being able to see people in person…

It’s honestly so strange. In the sense that I feel like the internet doesn’t make any sense. You see numbers, you see people comment these lovely things. People are so lovely, but it doesn’t really feel real. It doesn’t feel like real people. And then you play shows, and then you meet people, and then you’re like, whoa, these are real people. It’s just an entirely different experience to hold someone’s hand and have them tell you that they listened to this song during this year of their life. And you’re like, whoa, this is a real person and a real person’s life that I am somehow being this tiny little small part of. And it’s really cool. It’s just, it’s so special. I feel very lucky.

When you think about the history of music, I feel like artists used to tangibly see growth where it’s like, obviously, like you can pass around mixed CDs, you can share music with friends, in between tours, whatever. But you were saying online, you see the numbers, you see the comments, but it’s not very tangible. And so when you show up and you’re like, omg, this translated to bodies in a room, like this is real. It’s proof of that, because sometimes that doesn’t happen. Sometimes the numbers don’t equate to people showing up. And so the fact that they do, I think also speaks to the fact that like you are online showing this is what it’s like to experience me in person. And so people are like, I want to be a part of that, which I think is really important.

Totally. And also speaking to what you guys were saying about sometimes people might do really well online but not do well like in live shows. I think part of that is also just like I’ve been performing and playing open mics like for my whole life. And that’s not true for a lot of people because like a lot of people really like to write songs like and that’s the thing that they’re doing it for. Or they really like to make their visual world and all this stuff. And also it’s weird because a lot of people on TikTok picked it up during COVID. So then you don’t even have the chance to go out there and play a bunch of low stakes open mics, you know? You gather an audience, then the next second you’re playing a big headline show and it’s one of your first performances ever. Like that’s really scary. That’s terrifying. Like I think that that’s not a super fair spot to be put in. So I feel very lucky that it was something that I have always done as a kid, but it’s tough. It’s a scary thing to do.

Yeah, you got the chance to learn and grow in a safe space, whereas these other people had to learn and grow in front of an audience that’s already attached to them. 

Exactly. Yeah. That’s filming you also. That’s tough.

It’s so crazy because at that point, you can’t even curate your image anymore because other people are so used to seeing you online. And so with your background in performing, what was it like finding your voice in your art and finding your artistry? 

I think one of the biggest realizations that was really helpful is that I have to trust my intuition and my instincts. And if I like something, I need to follow it. I need to allow myself to follow it and not judge before it even happens. I went through a small period of writer’s block at one point where I didn’t really know what I wanted to make and what I wanted to say.

And I think it’s because my judgment was getting clouded by – honestly, I was thinking, are my fans gonna like this? Or is this gonna go viral? Just starting to think about a lot of other things that are out of my control. 

It was definitely a tough time for me and I started doing this thing where I pictured my instincts like a little flower that’s growing. It’s like this little flower of light and in the middle of sessions I would hear this little flower being like “what about this” and I would stomp on it and I’d be like “no shut up go away.” And the more you do that, the less your instincts are gonna talk to you, and then the more you’re in this writer’s block. 

So I think the biggest thing is – I am the artist. It represents what I like and my intuitions and my instincts. And the more I let myself do what I want and show what I like and make the music that I like, the more cohesive the artistry is.